I think, no I believe that you should follow what your heart tells you, every single thing that you do David has equal value because it all comes from the core of you, things turn to gold under your touch because you touch with your heart. Nobody has a right to decide where you should direct this album, you have all that it takes to make it, to bring the album to port. I wish I where more like you. That being said I say perhaps you could use both versions like you did Black Black heart in 2001!!! Bren. xx

alright, honest to God, the first version drives me off the wall, I love the natural in it the untouched, untamed and all raw David!!!

Absolutely! I think we have to stop putting all the value on the product and start valuing the process. I think the final “product” gains value when exposed to the process. Maybe the final product can somehow be a sum of its parts rather than a moment in time.

I feel the “value” is in the art itself, in all its forms. This song will yet evolve again as you perform it over the years. Much to the fun of the live show is the re-experiencing of the music in a new way.

Personally, the recorded album version often takes a back seat to live. Having access to the ‘romance period’ footage, well that just blows all else away, yet that’s the part I access for free. Everyone of course has their own preferences of what stage/version they prefer so the actual value is in the work as a whole in all of its evolutionary forms.

I am excited and thankful that technology can grant us access to the full process of art rather than the limited static form of a single recording (not everyone can attend the shows after all). I hope this type of access can be effectively transferred across all forms of art and can therefore serve to inspire others. Some artists fall into a trap of never really being satisfied with their work, not feeling it’s ever quite ‘finished’. With luck shifting our view of art to recognize it as an evolving body rather than as a static piece of work we can increase public sharing.

Now how we assign monetary value to an ever evolving body????

‘what do you think has value?’ i love this question - it’s one i think about often. i work on behalf of songwriters and publishers in music licensing and this is a question that we not only deal with on a daily basis - but one we fight for.

for me personally, music is assigned ‘value’ (monetary or otherwise) the moment it means something to someone else. that ’something’ can either be how a song enhances your experience at a restaurant, how a song helps bring passer-bys into your store to purchase shoes, or even as simple as the thought, “i love that song” and the user then proceeds to either legally (or most likely illegally) download the song to their computer or other player.

music is everywhere and it means something to everyone - which means it has value at every stage of the ‘game’.

the fact that music is everywhere and that is now is very easily accessible is not only exciting (no longer does a record company control the delivery method) but it’s also a little scary because while the labels refused to acknowledge that the business what changing, the walls came down and now without stringent copyright laws and rigid enforcement of those laws there is now a, well, how to say it, a “lack of monetizing” the music.

in order for songwriters to continue making music that enhances our lives, the songwriters need to be financially compensated for the value that their creations add to everyone’s lives.

This is really more about the value of songwriting in general (rather than cd vs. raw form), but musician Josh Ritter has an interesting little ditty on his latest record that seems somehow apropos:

Josh Ritter / Labelship Down

We heard it over the wire
That everybody here was fired
But we never really even felt hired
So we felt bad, but not that bad

We just pressed record
Started singing like we’d sung before
We had enough so who needs more
Of what we never really had

As the label went down in flames
Red ink and legal claims
We kept singing for the same
Reasons that we’d sung before

(PS. Maybe value could be defined by what has been gained from the creation of said thing. By the experience of hearing it, reading it, writing it. Beauty being in the eye of the beholder, and all… or that both versions of something could hold different, but equally weighted value. I’m a strong believer that financial gain is not a part of art itself, but the business of art - which should be regarded as a separate entity entirely.)

As I wrote on my myspace a year and a half ago about people I’d like to meet, here’s what I said :

“I love people who have a passion for what they do. I love to learn from the best and find out what makes them tick. When someone creates something beautiful; a song, a painting, a photograph, a dance routine or an entire show, I’m more interested in the proess of creation than the final product. I love seeing people succeed, especially when I know how hard they have worked for even a little bit of recognition.”

What you create, David, is from your heart and the value comes from the passion that you put into that body of work. Hard to put a pricetag on that I guess. When someone is touched by something you write or sing then they place value according to what effect it has on their own lives. I personally love all parts of the process because it shows the depth of an artist’s creativity. We are continually evolving as people, so why shouldn’t our art keep evolving. Don’t we learn from our past, so shall we never forget. I put no more value on my adulthood than I do on childhood, yet am I still the same person I was back then. I value the time of where I was at when it was happening. Inspiration can be fleeting, but it can also creep out of the corners again and again. The thing with music is that it keeps getting better with time (in this digital age)unlike other genres that maybe can’t withstand the test of time. Although, I could listen to a Beatles song on an old apple 45 or hear it in surround sound at 5.1 and still give them both equal value. They both represent the period of it’s time. Last night on Larry King Live Paul and Ringo spoke of this themselves.

I absolutely adore “And So We Run” in the beginning stage, because it is so raw and personal. I take great value in that. It speaks to me on a very profound deep level that can’t always be captured on a cd that is mass produced. I also like the live stuff because of the energy. Value…hmmmm…you’re valuable as a person and the product is a repesentation of you. Again, priceless. But yeah, you should get financially compensated what you feel you deserve. How much are you worth?

Perhaps instead of all this talk about subscriptions to song catalogues or ISP access fees we should be considering the idea of subscribing to an artist.

Something like, you pay a yearly fee for access to a particular artist’s work. Whether that be a band uploading one album or access to a content rich website like David’s that includes the art in its various forms of evolution would be up to the artist. In theory the artist would receive direct compensation for their efforts and also be somewhat released from the traditional cycle of production. Why wait to create an entire album when you just ‘finished’ this one great song? Not to mention artists who use various forms of expression. There are a number of excellent musicians who are also great painters and poets. A ton of logistics would need to be worked out, but an interesting concept, no?

That is an amazing idea ! I would definitely be up for that. Kind of like the TRUE FAN theory. I dislike paying for things over the internet because of fraud, but that could be worked out as well. However, how do you regulate the access. Some will pay and share with others. The true fans usually end up paying and the secondary fans reap the benefit. Logistics would have to be worked out. Artists have to be very creative in marketing these days. The music industry has to step up to the plate and change the way they market their artists. The only drawback is that people are going to get tired of paying for every artist that they want to listen to. Where do we draw the line on art. Should’nt some things be free. “The best things in life are free.” The artist already has to feed the monster to keep people interseted. How much is any one particular artist willing to put out there? How much will be charged…is the charge up to the artist? Who regulates prices….ooooh the questions. David, what do you think? Help us out here

That would be “shouldn’t” and “interested”…I hate spelling mistakes…but I’m so excited by this topic!

I think that the value of this song, to me, is in the interaction you have with your fans. The involvment. You choose the song to broadcast throughout the process of making it. So to me it wouldn’t have mattered what song it was. The value I get from it is in the interaction. It makes me keep wanting to listen, it makes me keep reading and trying to stay updated. The value comes more from you sharing the process with your fans. It wouldn’t have mattered what song you chose. Choosing a song that matters to you, I believe matters to your fans. This online blogging and interacting and the fact that we know it is you writing and telling us about all of it… that is what really matters. You make amazing music, you have great band who your fans can see you work well with and you make magic in all of your songs, in your own unique way. “And So We Run” has this sort of new and exciting value because of the effort you put into showing your fans the process of making it, from the raw version to live and then to the record, it’s all just so amazing and valuable to just have you share it all with us.
I think that the value it has to everyone is different, whether it is in the actual song or the process or the interaction you have. So would it not all have value? I think so.

Here is an interesting website on VALUE to bookmark

http://www.valuesofthewise.com/Public/Home/index.cfm

i think that neither one is more valuable than the other but that together they show immense value. both videos show the process (part of the process, anyway) to what leads to the final product, whatever you finally decide will be on the album. this demonstrates the evolution of the song. that is value.

Well, value is in the eye of the beholder as they say, or was that beauty. But you know what I mean. The whole is more than the sum of it’s parts. Speed and quickness are more valuable to some people while quality and slower might be more valuable to others and everything in between. My concern with speed these days is that quality could be compromised in the process of trying to please more people. Of course, speed and quantity can be more financially rewarding but I think that the yin and yang of quality vs quantity always needs to be kept in everyones mind. Your music is great quality and you do produce, as they say, so I think you’re finding a nice balance in your work and life, seems so at any rate.

value is what differentiates a person from another. value, just like beauty, is a very relative concept. But just like what my aesthetics professor taught me, however, the’re concrete parameters that are available to evaluate certain art objects and art forms. goals, form, and meaning are what determine the value and beauty of an object.

the cd, the final product, has the goal of not just to spread the music, but, to earn money for the musician and record companies as well. its value comes from the concept of mass production and profit. i dont want to sound very marxist but the main reason there are record companies is for the sole reason that music is very profitable. the cd, before it can be sold in a record store, must be very well planned and executed. target markets must be acquired, covers and labels must be designed, the artists must be “beautified” to add more appeal to the buyers, and to a certain extent image consultants are hired to improve not just the artist’s but the music’s marketabilty. it all boils down to the fact that musicians and record companies spends a lot of resources to create and release records for the hope of earning money in the end.

we can say that one type of value of music could be attributed to its commercial and monetary value in this particular case.

we could never be able ignore the fact however that beaneath all of the monetary and objective value of the cd, the music that resides within the digital sanctuaries of the final product, still has it own independent artistic value. artistic value in the sense that the song that is inside the cd came from something very sincere and very attached and connected to the artist who wrote the song. just like when someone looks into an original artwork in a gallery or museum, that overwhelming and warm feeling of connection with the painting is also present when one listens to a song that was just created and composed complete when all intents and emotions are still untarnished by the recording process. this is what i think is most valuable to me.

and to answer your question david, yes the final version is wonderful however, to me, your first footage of and so we run is more valuable for its sincerity and certain “purity”. XD

Money sucks! It’s the catalyst to most wars, the reason for many murders and the root to all evil. (Of course if I had any i’d probably re-evaluate my thoughts on it). I love music in all it’s forms. The works in progress,the studio recordings and the live performances all have a place on the grand $$$ scheme of things. For example, if I were to judge whether a piece of music was “worth the money” to spend on it I probably wouldn’t have bought If God Had Curves at all. The reason being that, after hearing the songs live I felt they were far superior to the studio recording. (I bought it anyway) I love live shows and I would love to see someone go on tour with a bunch of unreleased songs, play them in concert and then record them! Now that would be an interesting (and bold) new aproach to writing an album.

Yesterday, nothing had any value (to me). I failed to see any joy or hope in life at all. Today, I find value in absolutely everything I come in contact with. It all brings me joy. This leads me to believe there is no inherent value in anything at all. It would not exist if there was no one there to assign it. It is entirely up to the observer to find and discover the value that being alive has to offer. That is the joy of being human. We have eyes to see, hands to feel, lips to taste, a nose to smell, and beyond that are senses we are only beginning to explore. Life is a journey, every moment an experience, no experience or moment better or worse than the last. It simply is what you choose it to be. Choices create consequences. Peel back the layers and you might find value (if you choose). I often take for granted the simple things in life, failing to see the beauty of it all. I find plenty to complain about, the transit system, lineups, assholes cutting me off in traffic, my volkswagen beater. Its a noisy bugger. But would driving my dream car really fulfill me or bring me greater joy in the long run? Couldnt i walk and enjoy the exercise instead? Does doing one have more value than the other? Not really. A new car has a higher monetary value because it is assigned by the dealership. However, that is determined by the demand created by the consumer. Without the consumer, the vehicle would be worthless.

When it comes to music or art, literature or technology, value can be found in all the parts that make up the whole. These processes that feed life into the end result be it a song, a painting, a novel or a computer program are all valuable and indespensible pieces of the work. The creator is the means by which something is made,and the medium is chosen to represent what the creator had in mind. The creation is a by-product of the creators experiences and that which he or she wishes to express. The process is what brings the creation into fruition. “The vessel is empty, yet that is its purpose”.

My 13 year old daughter loves to draw, and is an amazing artist. Sometimes she comes across old drawings and shows them to me, and says, “look how badly I used to draw, mom” and I try to tell her that none of her drawings are bad, that they all have value because they brought her to where she is now, and will continue to lead her into the future. All versions of the creative process have value, they all tell a story. I love the intimacy of the first version of your song, and the intensity of the second….they are both tremendously valuable!

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