The problem is no one, social networks included, is going to feel they have to give anyone anything, artists, authors etc. I don’t think you can leave it to chance that by the goodness of people’s heart everyone will contribute to an artists income if they freely download some music. Now they may attend a concert and pay this way. But there needs to be laws and mechanisms in place to ensure the creators of the music or whatever are rightfully paid. In the academic world, authors when they write an article for a scholaryly journal, traditionally gave up copyright to the journal who then owned that article. But the author gets to put this on their resume and already has a salary with the university or wherever and this writing allows them to go from assistant prof to associate prof etc. The musician doesn’t have this salary unfortunately. Hopefully the social networks will be forced in some way to give back to the artists, this only seems right. How to make this happen, no idea.

Interesting to think of the social networking sites as the new “man” who is benefiting financially from artists without sharing the profits. It makes sense since the networks are big business and this will always clash in some way with the artist.

Your fantasy doesn’t seem so unreasonable. Most workers form unions to provide a united front to assure their rights against big business… why couldn’t musicians have the same? If only one site came to an agreement of this sort - they could dominate the music piece of the social networking craze. Though I shudder to think of a strike! But maybe that’s what the social networks need - a taste of the pie without the artists contribution.

In the comment above Michael says “I don’t think you can leave it to chance that by the goodness of people’s heart everyone will contribute to an artists income if they freely download some music.”

Funny enough, that’s actually exactly what Nine Inch Nails & Radiohead did with their pay-what-you-want efforts. A big part of the problem is that is seems to have become socially acceptable to rip off music. I was equating it recently to tipping in restaurants — there’s no law saying you have to, but people who don’t tip when the service is decent are generally considered jerks.

What really may be needed is a societal change in attitudes about the value of music, which kind of brings it back to the original point. How do we go about changing these attitudes? That’s the big question, and certainly not one I have an answer for!

So, should artists give a cut of ticket sales, sold out shows and merchandise back to social networks if that’s what they used - as their primary source -to promote the shows and drive people to buy tickets and merchandise?

I mean, after all, these social networks are giving them access to millions of people that, traditionally, they needed the record companies for.

Should Tila Tequila kick back some of the money she’s making off of her TV show, appearances, songs sold in iTunes to MySpace for the space and, more importantly, aduience they gave her to promote herself?

I’m just asking.

I watch a show called “The Hills” on MTV. Whenever a song is played a little blurp (for a lack of a better word) goes up on the screen mentioning the song and the artist. An adverstisement of sorts. (The usual is to put it in the credits at the end of a show, which nobody usually sees). I think it’s about time they started doing this for every show. However, if it wasn’t for the advertisers, the show wouldn’t be on in the first place. So the advertisers actually can generate money for the artist (or record company…I’m not sure how that works). Why couldn’t it be the opposite for the social networks. How much money do advertisers pay for an ad on the web? Music generates the money for them more-so on the web. I do agree that artists can reach millions more through these social networks than anywhere else. Three quarters of my myspace “Friends” are bands or musicians. It’s the main reason I joined…the other being able to stay connected with friends and family. But music is a large part of it. If it weren’t for the music etc…
Let’s get realistic. Most artists and self-employed people don’t get a pension, dental care or health care (at least in the States) unless they belong to a union or something, right? Yet, they contribute so much to society and culture in a positive way…(sorry Miss Cheney..plug for Eminem.LOL.) Musicians get ripped off IMO, but so do teachers. Speaking of values….It’s funny what society values more. Not to be disrespectful, because I love music more than anything. It’s the American dream (or Canadian) to be able to make a living in one’s chosen field. I think that musicians need to form their own coalition and stand up for what is rightly deserved. How to do that is unanswered for now, but things can and will have to change.
Good Luck

@Mitch - sure, right after you give some of your speakers fees back to the organizations you keynote for ‘cus they are helping you promote your agency!

Seriously though, on the one hand I see your point because musicians are getting access to a new audience through the infrastructure built by the social networks. On the other hand, I’d see the argument as more comparable to radio stations. The primary content of most radio is music, and radio stations DO pay artists through their performance rights organizations (SOCAN in Canada, ASCAP & BMI in the U.S.) Arguably radio stations and website have roughly the same business model (users get the content for free but are exposed to advertising) so should they not use the same model to pay for music?

this is probably the time when the power of the record companies once had are now dispersed and bestowed upon the artists and listeners themselves. the social networking sites are merely tools to achieve this state of the music industry. one great thing these social networking sites did was to let the listeners take part of the creative process as well. one great example of which is what you, david, is doing. the creative process that was once a very isolating phenomenon especially for the artist is now open and is now reaching to the artist’s audience.

it is not the record company’s game anymore. through these social networking sites, marketing has now become a less expensive and exhausting thing to do. artists have now achieved more freedom to disseminate their music throughout the world with less dependency on the corporate world for money circulation and acquisition, and marketing.

Jay, although I know you are joking it’s not the right comparison. My speaking agency books me and they get a commission for their efforts. Just like an agent that books the bands. The artist gets paid for the gig, the agent and the venue (by selling tickets) do as well.

My comparison is based solely on the promotion and marketing. The artists need the social networks to connect with their audience, and I believe artists are being “paid” by these social networks through free web pages, access, etc… - a totally free environment - that’s pretty cool. As you know, it’s not cheap to set-up a web page with hosting and streaming media and then drive traffic there. These social networks are giving this to artists for free (which, the last time I looked, is much cheaper than what the record companies were charging for promotions, audience, etc…).

The rationale behind Bragg’s comments is like saying: “the social networks should pay each member a portion of the sale because they would not be able to sell it if it weren’t for us - the individuals - who use it.”

It’s a little bit of a long stretch (if you ask me).

For those of you that read all of the posts on the previous topic, you’ll know (or not)that I was invited to dinner with some mentors of mine. The conversation went everywhere from the Beijing Olympics and the Tibet controversy (Stephen Harper was not left out of this one)to the music industry and how it is changing. One thing I got from this conversation was a positive energy about the inevitability of change , how to handle it through not complaining about it but taking action to do something to adjust, move or inspire that change. David, you are doing just that, so good on ya! Power can shift in a very short time even if the status quo has been an everlasting struggle. And.. even though there is change through tweaking and posturing, things may end up as they were intended to be albeit in a different form. But that’s no reason not to try. Don’t we go through this every political campaign? There’s so much flip flopping in the media, who knows what is real or fabricated? Who runs the media?…Advertisers…that’s who! Everytime the media is called out for being one-sided, they change their direction only to placate listeners for awhile. Then it goes back to the same old bull…t. Maybe if the “Smart” people educate those that are maybe unaware of the power of persuasion in the mass media, and they start to point out the discrepancies enough, big powerhouses like the media will change for the better. Soon to follow suit will be big business like the music industry (who also trick us into buying crap). Not you David :-)Yeah, I’m babbling, but that’s what three glasses of red wine will do to you:-) Gotta get up at 5:30 a.m…..bed.

@mitch and jay
myspace is the model we have, that doesnt mean it’s the only model possible. the most amazing thing about the end of the traditional music business is how it shows us that other models are possible. whats working on the web today can change in a second which is why all us ADD 6 am folks love it. im just saying that another model with different metrics is possible but only if we start the conversation…

Dave,

I totally agree and that’s why I think Bragg was off-base - he was trying to use the old model of “getting paid” with the new model. It doesn’t fit and, as he probably realizes now, it doesn’t work either.

Be bigger than your situation. You’ve been digging in the trenches longer than those who come and go in the music business. Are you going to sit back and let things happen or are you going to be a leader and stand up for what’s yours? Time to go to work boys! Conversation is great, but the sleeves need to get dirty now. What’s the next step?

Yvette’s got a point. What’s to say the fantasy can’t be reality?

So what’s really needed here? Basic idea is a Ning type application expandable for many users eg: Facebook with bands instead of “friends”, fully multimedia compatible complete with blogs, pics, basic promo website stuff. Hell why stop with band promotion when we have this pesky profit / intellectual property issue? So we combine with the same type of e-commerce used by your basic MP3 purchasing site. Each band has a store incorporated upload and offer there own music direct to fans online. Free to listen/sample onsite, pay to download, maybe flog a few t-shirts & concert DVDs while you’re at it. Forget the whole pirated music thing. This has been around since recordable media was widely offered to the public. Unless the price of writable CDs etc. suddenly go off the charts this wont stop. What you’re after is the true fans, those of us who will willingly pay the artist. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that more people are willing to pay if they believe the money is going directly to the artist instead of a record company, but I digress. Let’s see now…background hosting site for the whole thing is run as a not for profit, expenses paid for by a little banner advertising… Musicians realize they have a user friendly forum helping them promote themselves/eachother combined with a little ecommerce so they can keep more of their own money and property rights to their own music… Why not band together and dump Facebook, Myspace, etc. pull all your content and instead use this lovely little not for profit music co-op that respects artists because its made for/by artists? Finish out existing contracts then sell music directly instead of using the traditional avenues.

So what really needs to be done to make it happen? Anyone got a few web programming contacts? A college tech geek looking for a challenge? How many people did it take to start Facebook, etc? There’s always a few deep pockets around who love the arts. Not like there’s a lack of talent for fundraising events. The technology already exists, nothing new needed. So help me out here because I’m not part of the industry myself and I know I’ve got to be missing something - why isn’t this already being done?

@Elizabethlouise (and others)
Looks like this just popped up. Radiohead has launched W.A.S.T.E. Central, a social network run by and for musicians (www.waste-central.com).

Meanwhile, I don’t feel like this is the issue. Like Mitch, I don’t think that social network sites should “pay out” if artists decide to upload music. I’m actually in the middle of posting a slightly longer version of this argument, but the basic idea is that these artists are being given pages REGARDLESS of whether music is up or not. Whether the artist decides to share the music with the fans is up to them; they can still have the page to promote themselves for free.

By uploading music, then, artists are attracting visitors to their page and giving a sample of what their material sounds like. Who says that full tracks need to be uploaded to Myspace? Moreover, artists can restrict downloading capabilities, ensuring that the music is available for streaming only, and can be used as a “sampling” experience.

Musicians, and any/all marketing forces behind them, should be focusing more on driving users AWAY from their Myspace page and towards their own one, where the music (and concert tickets, and merchandise, etc) can be sold through the “legitimate” channels, allowing the musician to, indeed, profit off their Myspace page.

[...] to check out my trusty Google Reader, I came across Mitch Joel’s latest post in response to David Usher’s request for social networks to pay “royalty” money. To quote David, though for my own [...]

It all depends on the people you hang out with on the net. Most of my friends pages are filled with promotion for their favorite artist. They not only do this as a favor to the artist, but it is a way to tell a little bit about yourself…likes and dislikes. I agree with Mitch that people join networks to share…but what are we sharing mostly. Music and pictures. (eg. of a typical conversation of people getting connected or reaquainted on facebook or myspace…”Hey, how’s it going? I love the new pic…you haven’t changed a bit. I love that song you put up. He /she sounds really cool. I’ll have to check them out.” Sound familiar anyone?

My old friend recently got in touch with me and has now become a fan of David Usher because my facebook page is plastered with David Usher. I guess I’m one of the 1000 true fans. David benefitted, yes and I want MY fee…LOL. David is smart. He doesn’t need to promote himself all that much, his fans do it for him. It’s like a wheel that we can all take part in if we WANT A CHOICE IN MUSIC! But again, David said that while myspace is an okay model, it’s not the perfect model. IMO musicians play a large part in gathering people to social networks. Period. Royalties should be paid to those artists that bring in a significant amount of traffic. The more you generate, the more you earn in royalties. “Hits For A Buck”…haha…or maybe it could be like Canadian Idol. The more phone- calls the ….nah….that’s ridiculous…heehee!
I love Justin Timberlake and Coldplay and other huge megastar artists, but I also love, love ,love my homegrown S’toon boys who aren’t signed onto a label. Shouldn’t I as a consumer have access to these bands as well? I can buy their music because I attend their shows. Still, there has to be an easier way to distribute music over the net without ripping off the artist. I’m so green on this but it’s a worthy subject…David for president XO

I never thought anyone would compare to MySpace a record label, but your point makes sense. Agree with Mitch in saying that it’s not feasible to make some sort of payments for the traffic they drive; I would not consider that to be the way an artist would make their living either.

The new web is all about people: artists are people, fans are people. The “people helping people” mentality that exists in the physical world (for the most part) will eventually transfer over to the web. Artists will make a living from the direct support fans give them; MySpace, Facebook, Virb and the others can only act as publicity platforms.

Also, your fantasy is capable of existing in real life, but I would not say that this generation of musicians will be behind it. I will be the next-generation, because they are more aware of these platforms, after growing up with Facebook and MySpace sooner than you guys. Not to say that it is impossible for your generation of musicians to create their own Ning, but it is probably more likely for artists that have more awareness of this stuff.

That brings me to final point. I think it’s awesome that you have a blog and that you actually know what Ning is. I’m surprised and impressed. Keep up the blog and all of your web life, and don’t forget to tell your buddies about all of this; fantasies can come true!

i know im pushing buttons with the post title “mike arrington should shut up and sing…”:), but so is he when he uses a photo of billy bragg with the text “sing more, talk less”. i not imagining for a second that myspace is about to change its metrics and payout artists. what i am doing is trying to highlight the the fact that artists drive traffic and this can give them power. we are the worst sort for organizing but the model is in flux and there are a lot of opportunities for broad thinkers to create new networks. 50 cent has started his own social network, radiohead just started theirs. this might be a good time to visualize new something with different metrics.

Originally posted as a response to mitch at:
http://www.twistimage.com/blog/archives/note-to-marketers-and-musicians-online-social-networks-owe-you-nothing/

Well, I’m older and don’t even have our computer at home hooked up to the net, just use a work computer. When I listen to music, it is for the most part on CD or through the radio or through our digital cable which we now get around 35 channels for free when you get a digital box and subscribe to an enhanced digital package.

But there is nothing like pulling the CD off your rack, opening it up and loading it in your player and reading the little booklet many artists put in their CD’s. Sort of like a book to me, I hate reading a book on the computer, a short article fine but not a book.

I know I’m in the minority and am older, we won’t be around. The world is changing, different ways of doing things. And my mother at 86 mentioned on the weekend she wants access to the web to see her grandkids Facebook and Youtube sites, wow, never thought I’d hear this!

Talk about changes. This article says social networking may become the norm for how people communicate with the new high-speed internet coming.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article3689881.ece

David, I recognize that you’re looking for a new model to monetize music for artists in the ever-changing digital world. I have some ideas, and would love to get in touch to see what you think, as you’re an artist looking for a solution too.

Oh, and I guess I should pre-emptively apologize for the title of the article I posted on my own blog, as Mitch pointed out. You *do* know how to self-promote; I, like you, was just trying to push buttons while allowing for a preview of the “Myspace-as-self-promotion-tool” argument.

[...] David Usher’s CloudiD blog    Episode #7 - Is Content King? (And If Not, What Is?): Play Now | Play in Popup | Download Popularity: unranked [?]SHARETHIS.addEntry({ title: “Episode #7 - Is Content King? (And If Not, What Is?)”, url: “http://mediadriving.com/2008/04/08/episode-7-is-content-king-and-if-not-what-is/” }); [...]

@aidan
no worries im loving the conversations!

David, discovered your blog through Mitch Joel’s, and am very glad of it. If you have some time, please check out 76fanclubs. We think it just might be a way for musicians and fans to support each other in this ‘brave new world’.

Looking forward to reading more of your stuff.

I heard a rumour that Medicine Hat has mass of hungry and kind of desperate citizens who would love for you to come here…

I have a word for the phenomena but I don’t want to be the only one on here with lewd words.

have a great weekend!!

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